Comments on: The search for a genetic killer

By: Henrik Berg

Henrik Berg — Sun, 20 Jan 2013 10:18:44 +0000

I like your variety of views on the subject as is expressed in the last part of your reply, but also your generel optimism regarding the possibilities of crime prevention as expressed in the first part. Lets hope we can do more in the future with the help of science and other means.

By: Neurotic Ape

Neurotic Ape — Sun, 20 Jan 2013 06:37:42 +0000

Hi Henrik, At this stage of the game it is still too early to predict results. There are definitely many factors which go into creating an individuals makeup and subsequent actions. What I am advocating is collecting as much data as possible. I think that it would be foolhardy to not look at genetic factors. Until we have adequate data we do not know what if any actions to take. When dealing with homicidal psycopaths I sincerely doubt that there is one single determing factor, it is more likely a combination of many factors. There is already a wealth of information which points to an individualls history as being part of the cause. At the moment there is not enough information to predict if someone will become a mass murderer. But there is much information that allows us to say that particular individuals are highly unlikely to become mass murderers. It seems to me that it is a matter of collecting more data and refining our processes of analyzing said data. Who knows, perhaps the future will allow us to actually remove particular genes before they express themselves.
There is another line of thought that may say that mass murderers play an important function within our society. At face level this seems a bit hard to take. But when you take the complexity of human society and start to unravel its intricacies this may very well be the case. Ancient Eastern philosophy says that you need bad to truly understand good. Science is merely trying to quantify what many cultures already know on an anecdotal level.

By: Henrik Berg

Henrik Berg — Sat, 19 Jan 2013 10:48:05 +0000

Hey Neurotic ape, thank you for your reply. I agree it is relevant to look into possible genetic reasons why some people commit horrible crimes. It`s a huge challenge though as the article above also imply. People who suffer from manic-depression don´t have many children but depression is a world wide epidemic suggesting it isn`t a genetic problem but a cultural one (or maybe it`s something in our food). I think the same goes for violence. Therefore we need to look at the problems from a sociological perspective too and geneticists sometimes overlook that, I find. If genes can predict behaviour, however, scientists just have to predict behaviour and if their predictions are right we should take into consideration whether we should use these tools to prevent crime, or if there are other considerations that weigh heavier. We might be able to say that someone has a 25 percent change of becoming a criminal, but we can say that about some ethnic groups in some countris already now based on statistics, but it would be racist to assume that an individual within the group is prone to crime. In the same way geneism (racism on the basis of genes) might prevent us from using our findings in the interest of fighting crime, because the protection of the individual from geneism is more important.

By: Cellar

Cellar — Sat, 19 Jan 2013 09:24:55 +0000

So, you’re not responsible for what you do, it’s your genes that made you do it? Bit of a bummer for free will, innit?

Before you know it, we’re back to eugenics. Which is neither good nor bad, just very, very tricky. Where to draw the line, who gets to decide, by what right?

And let’s be clear, our advancing knowledge already has insurers salivating about the mere thought; getting sidelined by commercial agents in society based on your genes is a watered down version of same. This makes the full monty a necessary and useful extreme case to discuss.

Note that our aversion to eugenics comes from people who put a very strong arbitrary ideological impetus on their decisions then ran with it. If we are to try again, how do we ensure it doesn’t go awry again, and anyway, what is right in the first place? And how do we make sure our moral high ground isn’t the same as sheer arrogance?

Yet as much as we wanted to put it all behind us then, it has happened again even in the most enlightened states afterward, and in fact is still happening including on the basis of mere dislike some state has for some groups on its soil, quietly helping them perish.

The easy answer is to choose to leave the issue well alone and let the village idiot live. But even trying to use it as a defense argument might well backfire, and then where will we end up? The worst thing is that we may end up having to tackle this anyway.

By: neurotic ape

neurotic ape — Fri, 18 Jan 2013 17:52:44 +0000

Henrik, you make some good points in the view of punishment. But what about prevention? If there is a possibility of a genetic link don’t you think that it would be worthwhile to find this out? In understanding the underlying causes there is better hope of preventing these events before they happen.

By: neurotic ape

neurotic ape — Fri, 18 Jan 2013 17:48:16 +0000

Duane,on the surface level what you say makes some sense. You will also get no argument from many psychologists that experience plays a role in developement. What you outline though is a bit mild for creating a full blown psychopath. Usually they have been severely beaten on a regular basis by their caretakers. Often they have been repeatedly raped, this is particularly traumatizing for the boys. The reason that a genetic element is being looked for is that not everyone that experiences the same treatment reacts the same. It is theorized that there is some predetermining factor at work there.

By: Henrik Berg

Henrik Berg — Fri, 18 Jan 2013 02:44:17 +0000

The question to me is- where does this end? Guys are more genetically prone to violence than women so should they not be punished when committing violent crimes? In Norway last year they had enough of the mental excuses- When psychologists deemed the massmurderer who killed 70 children insane the public wanted the decision reversed and have him sentenced like a normal man- a new mental profile was ordered and lo and behold- the man was suddenly sane. The underlying reason for this line of events, I believe, is that what is important is not whether someone acts freely or not- its easy to make the argument that free will doesn`t even exist (you can make the argument that it does too)- the important thing is whether it makes society function well to call someone insane or not and punish them accordingly. In the famous Stanford prison experiment most normal people are shown to be capable of murder, but just as interestingly to me, noone wants to put the participants in jail- not because they did not behave just as bad as many real murderers, since they thought they where killing someone, but because society would not work well if we send everyone to jail- we draw a line based on what makes society work well or not- not just based on genetics and acts of freedom although that is also of SOME interest when judging a case of murder.

By: Duane Friedlander

Duane Friedlander — Thu, 17 Jan 2013 23:05:49 +0000

I certainly do not wish to burst any bubbles here, but what exactly are we looking for in the DNA? Take any child/person (of any race) and expose them to violent movies/violent video games, give them everything they want (except your time and attention), teach them (by example) that everything else (money,cars,sex,etc) is more important to you than they are and stir that up.

Guess what, you get a little psycho who does not care about anyone else (including you)

The solution? medicate them, thats right lets give them phycotrophic drugs and see what happens.

The little psycho stops taking the meds one day and sneaks into your house and takes your LEGALLY purchased firearm and shoot you with it, then the little psycho starts to think about all the “other” people that have wronged him and he goes on a spree.

There are a lot of factors at work here, there is no “one thing” that could have stopped this tragedy and I do not see that the DNA had anything to do with it.

So please educate me

By: Jammo

Jammo — Thu, 10 Jan 2013 19:44:01 +0000

No judge in his or her right mind will ever accept genes as causes for any criminal action because that decision would make jurisdiction devoid of substance e.g it would give lawyers the boot!

By: Neurotic Ape

Neurotic Ape — Thu, 10 Jan 2013 05:01:35 +0000

I am surprised that a journal as prestigous as Nature would make a statement as foolish as ” Something as simple as a DNA sequence cannot explain anything as complex as behaviour”.
DNA sequences are anything but simple. Sure they look that way, put one of four molecules here and you get this put it there and you get that. But as we are still learning the sequencing carries an extraordinarily high level of complexity. What we thought of as junk genes 5 years ago we now know are an important part of the DNA strand. It will not be long before all kinds of human behaviour will be known to have a genetic predisposition.