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	<title>Comments on: Work for free!</title>
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	<description>Neuroscience and psychology news and views.</description>
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		<title>By: Aimee Sparker</title>
		<link>http://mindhacks.com/2012/11/14/work-for-free/#comment-40979</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Aimee Sparker]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 22 Nov 2012 07:54:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mindhacks.com/?p=24931#comment-40979</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I agree with the point that it is precious place to work, learn and enter into the bigger arena. But still I guess instead of making it absolutely &quot;unpaid&quot; they should make it partially paying. Mean OK, don&#039;t pay that much but at least to cover the basic expenses give some. Because the person who don&#039;t have any other source of income or savings can&#039;t join it and can simply miss this precious opportunity.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree with the point that it is precious place to work, learn and enter into the bigger arena. But still I guess instead of making it absolutely &#8220;unpaid&#8221; they should make it partially paying. Mean OK, don&#8217;t pay that much but at least to cover the basic expenses give some. Because the person who don&#8217;t have any other source of income or savings can&#8217;t join it and can simply miss this precious opportunity.</p>
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		<title>By: Tom Michael</title>
		<link>http://mindhacks.com/2012/11/14/work-for-free/#comment-40672</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Tom Michael]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 17 Nov 2012 10:39:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mindhacks.com/?p=24931#comment-40672</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I agree with this and other comments.  Asking people to work for free does exclude those who are unable to do so, and gradually moves clinical psychology towards being a profession which only those from more privileged backgrounds can enter.

Nskeptic made a good point in their reply though, that honorary/work experience/work for free posts are a symptom of the underlying disease.  The important question here then is this - what is the underlying disease?

If we accept that salaries are roughly based on supply and demand for the skills and expertise required, then an increasing number of honorary posts suggests that there is either a) an oversupply of psychology graduates or b) an undersupply of assistant psychology posts (and/or possibly trainee clinical psychology places) or c) a bit of both.

In these times of political and economic austerity, as much as we might like the government to spend more on additional assistant psychologist posts (and trainee places) this is probably quite unlikely to happen.

This leads us to consider the other side of the equation, possible overproduction of psychology graduates.  With undergraduate tuition fees now as much as £9000 per year, a psychology graduate will likely have in excess of £30,000 in debt (once living costs and other expenses are taken into account).

My worry is that if we continue to produce psychology graduates in ever increasing numbers, at much greater expense/debt to the graduate, into a job market with not enough posts and in which they are increasingly expected to take unpaid work experience, then the value of a psychology degree will become increasingly less, due to diminishing expected returns on an increasingly expensive investment.

At the moment, young undergraduates are still confident that their degree will give them an excellent return on their investment, but what if they begin to lose this confidence over the next few years or so?  A loss of confidence in the value of a psychology degree would be disastrous for our profession, particularly in higher education.

I&#039;m not sure what the solution is however.  Perhaps other readers could offer their opinions here?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree with this and other comments.  Asking people to work for free does exclude those who are unable to do so, and gradually moves clinical psychology towards being a profession which only those from more privileged backgrounds can enter.</p>
<p>Nskeptic made a good point in their reply though, that honorary/work experience/work for free posts are a symptom of the underlying disease.  The important question here then is this &#8211; what is the underlying disease?</p>
<p>If we accept that salaries are roughly based on supply and demand for the skills and expertise required, then an increasing number of honorary posts suggests that there is either a) an oversupply of psychology graduates or b) an undersupply of assistant psychology posts (and/or possibly trainee clinical psychology places) or c) a bit of both.</p>
<p>In these times of political and economic austerity, as much as we might like the government to spend more on additional assistant psychologist posts (and trainee places) this is probably quite unlikely to happen.</p>
<p>This leads us to consider the other side of the equation, possible overproduction of psychology graduates.  With undergraduate tuition fees now as much as £9000 per year, a psychology graduate will likely have in excess of £30,000 in debt (once living costs and other expenses are taken into account).</p>
<p>My worry is that if we continue to produce psychology graduates in ever increasing numbers, at much greater expense/debt to the graduate, into a job market with not enough posts and in which they are increasingly expected to take unpaid work experience, then the value of a psychology degree will become increasingly less, due to diminishing expected returns on an increasingly expensive investment.</p>
<p>At the moment, young undergraduates are still confident that their degree will give them an excellent return on their investment, but what if they begin to lose this confidence over the next few years or so?  A loss of confidence in the value of a psychology degree would be disastrous for our profession, particularly in higher education.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m not sure what the solution is however.  Perhaps other readers could offer their opinions here?</p>
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		<title>By: rmgw</title>
		<link>http://mindhacks.com/2012/11/14/work-for-free/#comment-40671</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[rmgw]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 17 Nov 2012 10:15:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mindhacks.com/?p=24931#comment-40671</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I was shocked, years ago, to see &quot;work experience&quot; (now enshrined as &quot;workfare&quot;, perhaps?) posts being advertised in The Psychologist: I hear from people in other professions here in Spain (architecture, the Law) of similar offers to the job-starved (&quot;help with travel costs&quot;: &quot;experience&quot;...)acrually being promoted by the professional bodies in question.  Appalling for various reasons, not least because of the promotion of &quot;voluntarism&quot; and most certainly because of the edging out of the less privileged, as you and one commentator have mentioned. A ghastly business.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I was shocked, years ago, to see &#8220;work experience&#8221; (now enshrined as &#8220;workfare&#8221;, perhaps?) posts being advertised in The Psychologist: I hear from people in other professions here in Spain (architecture, the Law) of similar offers to the job-starved (&#8220;help with travel costs&#8221;: &#8220;experience&#8221;&#8230;)acrually being promoted by the professional bodies in question.  Appalling for various reasons, not least because of the promotion of &#8220;voluntarism&#8221; and most certainly because of the edging out of the less privileged, as you and one commentator have mentioned. A ghastly business.</p>
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		<title>By: nskeptic</title>
		<link>http://mindhacks.com/2012/11/14/work-for-free/#comment-40667</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[nskeptic]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 17 Nov 2012 08:54:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mindhacks.com/?p=24931#comment-40667</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I applaud The Psychologist for boycotting ads like this - everyone should do that. But they&#039;re a symptom of an underlying disease and we need to tackle that too.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I applaud The Psychologist for boycotting ads like this &#8211; everyone should do that. But they&#8217;re a symptom of an underlying disease and we need to tackle that too.</p>
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		<title>By: Megan L</title>
		<link>http://mindhacks.com/2012/11/14/work-for-free/#comment-40536</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Megan L]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 Nov 2012 23:57:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mindhacks.com/?p=24931#comment-40536</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[As an undergraduate psychology student, the gap between completing a Bsc and moving into clinical work is hugely daunting. The idea of working for free for the foreseeable future, with no clear route into a clinical setting is so off putting that i&#039;m considering retraining in a different field. In addition, there is a huge culture of &#039;you need experience to get experience&#039; which is stifling many students as they are desperate to get involved but, technically, qualified for absolutely nothing. C&#039;est la vie, unfortunately.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As an undergraduate psychology student, the gap between completing a Bsc and moving into clinical work is hugely daunting. The idea of working for free for the foreseeable future, with no clear route into a clinical setting is so off putting that i&#8217;m considering retraining in a different field. In addition, there is a huge culture of &#8216;you need experience to get experience&#8217; which is stifling many students as they are desperate to get involved but, technically, qualified for absolutely nothing. C&#8217;est la vie, unfortunately.</p>
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		<title>By: Todd S</title>
		<link>http://mindhacks.com/2012/11/14/work-for-free/#comment-40531</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Todd S]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 Nov 2012 22:22:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mindhacks.com/?p=24931#comment-40531</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[And who says you can&#039;t voluntarily be a slave?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>And who says you can&#8217;t voluntarily be a slave?</p>
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		<title>By: amelie</title>
		<link>http://mindhacks.com/2012/11/14/work-for-free/#comment-40528</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[amelie]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 Nov 2012 21:54:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mindhacks.com/?p=24931#comment-40528</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[They must have taken their cue from huge universities exploiting college basketball players! Seriously though, these internships are popular here too. Is there any indication these volunteers will eventually get a paid position? I tend to doubt it.

Also popular here are &quot;working interviews&quot; where &quot;applicants&quot; work free, sometimes for weeks.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>They must have taken their cue from huge universities exploiting college basketball players! Seriously though, these internships are popular here too. Is there any indication these volunteers will eventually get a paid position? I tend to doubt it.</p>
<p>Also popular here are &#8220;working interviews&#8221; where &#8220;applicants&#8221; work free, sometimes for weeks.</p>
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		<title>By: Tom Michael</title>
		<link>http://mindhacks.com/2012/11/14/work-for-free/#comment-40524</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Tom Michael]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 Nov 2012 21:27:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mindhacks.com/?p=24931#comment-40524</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Hi Vaughan,

I totally agree with the majority of your post, and would add that I&#039;ve encountered people working for free in &quot;honorary&quot; assistant psychologist posts.  Whilst it is invaluable experience, it does mean that only those who are able to afford to take what are in effect unpaid internships are able to gain experience in these jobs.  This may well prevent people from less privileged backgrounds from getting into clinical psychology.

One point about the masters in applications of clinical psychology is worth making though.  My university (Newman University College) offers a course in applications of clinical psychology, with modules in things like neuropsychological assessment, advanced statistics, ethics &amp; professional issues etc and these modules can be taken to PG Cert (3 modules), Diploma (6 modules) or Masters (6 modules plus masters dissertation).  However, most people do not actually do the whole course, as many of them manage to get into clinical training at some point during the course, so don&#039;t complete the full masters.

Its hard to argue that the course is *causing* them to get into clinical training (as many of the masters students already have assistant psychologist jobs) so it could be that keen assistant psychologists are taking these courses as part time distance learners to try and boost their chances.  Full disclosure - I&#039;ve got the PG Cert from Newman, which would have cost me £1200 (£400 per module) although it was free for me as I was doing my PhD there.

One good thing is that clinical applications from men are now encouraged, as we are under-represented in the profession.  Wish me luck! :)]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Vaughan,</p>
<p>I totally agree with the majority of your post, and would add that I&#8217;ve encountered people working for free in &#8220;honorary&#8221; assistant psychologist posts.  Whilst it is invaluable experience, it does mean that only those who are able to afford to take what are in effect unpaid internships are able to gain experience in these jobs.  This may well prevent people from less privileged backgrounds from getting into clinical psychology.</p>
<p>One point about the masters in applications of clinical psychology is worth making though.  My university (Newman University College) offers a course in applications of clinical psychology, with modules in things like neuropsychological assessment, advanced statistics, ethics &amp; professional issues etc and these modules can be taken to PG Cert (3 modules), Diploma (6 modules) or Masters (6 modules plus masters dissertation).  However, most people do not actually do the whole course, as many of them manage to get into clinical training at some point during the course, so don&#8217;t complete the full masters.</p>
<p>Its hard to argue that the course is *causing* them to get into clinical training (as many of the masters students already have assistant psychologist jobs) so it could be that keen assistant psychologists are taking these courses as part time distance learners to try and boost their chances.  Full disclosure &#8211; I&#8217;ve got the PG Cert from Newman, which would have cost me £1200 (£400 per module) although it was free for me as I was doing my PhD there.</p>
<p>One good thing is that clinical applications from men are now encouraged, as we are under-represented in the profession.  Wish me luck! <img src='http://s0.wp.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: Jon Sutton</title>
		<link>http://mindhacks.com/2012/11/14/work-for-free/#comment-40523</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Jon Sutton]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 Nov 2012 21:06:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mindhacks.com/?p=24931#comment-40523</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Hi Vaughan, 
Just wanted to add that following discussion over this in The Psychologist&#039;s &#039;Letters&#039; pages and at the Psychologist and Digest Policy Committee, we have stopped accepting such ads - see announcement on p.799 in November issue.
Cheers
Jon Sutton
Editor
The Psychologist
The British Psychological Society]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Vaughan,<br />
Just wanted to add that following discussion over this in The Psychologist&#8217;s &#8216;Letters&#8217; pages and at the Psychologist and Digest Policy Committee, we have stopped accepting such ads &#8211; see announcement on p.799 in November issue.<br />
Cheers<br />
Jon Sutton<br />
Editor<br />
The Psychologist<br />
The British Psychological Society</p>
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