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	<title>Comments on: A bridge over troubled waters for fMRI?</title>
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		<title>By: Pia Marjukka Laasonen</title>
		<link>http://mindhacks.com/2012/05/28/a-bridge-over-troubled-waters-for-fmri/#comment-28025</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Pia Marjukka Laasonen]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 31 May 2012 19:12:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mindhacks.com/?p=22743#comment-28025</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Dear Tom Stafford where are your evidence.book named Control your Dreams.I know that brains work (the healty and studied brains)their own way and do best for person.What,do you have evidence?Total mess.Trust your brains and so on.It is so easy be brainless,heh.Deine Tomatohead.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dear Tom Stafford where are your evidence.book named Control your Dreams.I know that brains work (the healty and studied brains)their own way and do best for person.What,do you have evidence?Total mess.Trust your brains and so on.It is so easy be brainless,heh.Deine Tomatohead.</p>
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		<title>By: Pia Marjukka Laasonen</title>
		<link>http://mindhacks.com/2012/05/28/a-bridge-over-troubled-waters-for-fmri/#comment-27932</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Pia Marjukka Laasonen]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 May 2012 12:04:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mindhacks.com/?p=22743#comment-27932</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Dear Society,the Therm is not anderstudiesstanding.Flower in A Greenfields and then brains fly and to create like beutines yours way is what.Think total free,Tom Stafford you have take less terms,you explane too much,are your brains connecting like machine,data better create something your own in Blanco Paper.Try clear your brains like no think only be .]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dear Society,the Therm is not anderstudiesstanding.Flower in A Greenfields and then brains fly and to create like beutines yours way is what.Think total free,Tom Stafford you have take less terms,you explane too much,are your brains connecting like machine,data better create something your own in Blanco Paper.Try clear your brains like no think only be .</p>
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		<title>By: jjsakon</title>
		<link>http://mindhacks.com/2012/05/28/a-bridge-over-troubled-waters-for-fmri/#comment-27794</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[jjsakon]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 May 2012 19:41:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mindhacks.com/?p=22743#comment-27794</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I think a major issue with the &quot;flexibility&quot; of fMRI analyses is the limited number of people that really understand these different methods.  As someone that uses electrophysiology to study the MTL I come across a lot of fMRI results in this region and have no means of vetting them.  Just recently I was reading a paper that found something using MVPA (http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/hipo.20960/pdf) and I just have to trust the reviewers did their due diligence.  

This seems to lead to another problem: the closed circle of fMRI researchers vetting each others&#039; work.  I presume not many people outside of fMRI work have used something like MVPA enough to understand it and ensure it&#039;s properly employed.  While I don&#039;t mean to imply there&#039;s some kind of fMRI old boys&#039; club, I can understand Tal Yarkoni&#039;s skepticism since it&#039;s probably counterproductive for an fMRI-using reviewer to tear apart a submission to a high tier journal.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think a major issue with the &#8220;flexibility&#8221; of fMRI analyses is the limited number of people that really understand these different methods.  As someone that uses electrophysiology to study the MTL I come across a lot of fMRI results in this region and have no means of vetting them.  Just recently I was reading a paper that found something using MVPA (<a href="http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/hipo.20960/pdf" rel="nofollow">http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/hipo.20960/pdf</a>) and I just have to trust the reviewers did their due diligence.  </p>
<p>This seems to lead to another problem: the closed circle of fMRI researchers vetting each others&#8217; work.  I presume not many people outside of fMRI work have used something like MVPA enough to understand it and ensure it&#8217;s properly employed.  While I don&#8217;t mean to imply there&#8217;s some kind of fMRI old boys&#8217; club, I can understand Tal Yarkoni&#8217;s skepticism since it&#8217;s probably counterproductive for an fMRI-using reviewer to tear apart a submission to a high tier journal.</p>
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		<title>By: nskeptic</title>
		<link>http://mindhacks.com/2012/05/28/a-bridge-over-troubled-waters-for-fmri/#comment-27770</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[nskeptic]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 May 2012 13:07:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mindhacks.com/?p=22743#comment-27770</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Great post.

I feel like a spammer at the moment because whenever these kinds of discussions crop up I always post the following link:
http://neuroskeptic.blogspot.co.uk/2012/04/fixing-science-systems-and-politics.html

Which is where I argue that we ought to pre-register scientific studies so that the original methods and analyses are publically available, and post hoc &quot;fishing&quot; can be distinguished from hypothesis-driven a priori stuff.

It&#039;s interesting that both Tal &amp; Russell point to the flexibility of fMRI analyses as the primary problem with the field - this flexibility could be a very good thing (it means the methods are versatile) but it easily becomes a problem when people are able to selectively publish only the significant findings.

Preregistration would help mitigate this - although it&#039;s not a panacea and replication would still be important.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Great post.</p>
<p>I feel like a spammer at the moment because whenever these kinds of discussions crop up I always post the following link:<br />
<a href="http://neuroskeptic.blogspot.co.uk/2012/04/fixing-science-systems-and-politics.html" rel="nofollow">http://neuroskeptic.blogspot.co.uk/2012/04/fixing-science-systems-and-politics.html</a></p>
<p>Which is where I argue that we ought to pre-register scientific studies so that the original methods and analyses are publically available, and post hoc &#8220;fishing&#8221; can be distinguished from hypothesis-driven a priori stuff.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s interesting that both Tal &amp; Russell point to the flexibility of fMRI analyses as the primary problem with the field &#8211; this flexibility could be a very good thing (it means the methods are versatile) but it easily becomes a problem when people are able to selectively publish only the significant findings.</p>
<p>Preregistration would help mitigate this &#8211; although it&#8217;s not a panacea and replication would still be important.</p>
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		<title>By: Daniel Bor</title>
		<link>http://mindhacks.com/2012/05/28/a-bridge-over-troubled-waters-for-fmri/#comment-27763</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Daniel Bor]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 May 2012 11:08:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mindhacks.com/?p=22743#comment-27763</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Thanks so much Vaughan for continuing this important debate, and giving it such prominence in the national press.

Re Tom Michael&#039;s comment about brain injury studies, it&#039;s always good to look at a scientific issue from multiple angles, and brain injury studies are a useful example here - but carry their own problems (damage not limited to area under study, brain adapting to damage in unpredictable ways, unknown extra hidden damage, e.g. in white matter tracts, and so on). Neuroimaging, especially fMRI, is an incredibly useful, powerful method potentially, but can only live up to this potential if various things improve, including better training, more valid application of techniques, more replication, and generally more rigour at all stages.

Just to flag up that I wrote a long blogpost about these problems, along with potential solutions (with an extensive comment discussion, including from Russ Poldrack and Tal Yarkoni) here:
http://www.danielbor.com/dilemma-weak-neuroimaging/

And there was a great special issue of this month&#039;s The Psychologist magazine, with many articles generally discussing the problem of replication in psychology, with one article (by me) specifically describing problems and potential solutions in neuroimaging.  You can access this issue here: 
http://issuu.com/thepsychologist/docs/0512?mode=embed&amp;layout=http%3A%2F%2Fskin.issuu.com%2Fv%2Fdark%2Flayout.xml&amp;showFlipBtn=true&amp;proShowSidebar=true]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks so much Vaughan for continuing this important debate, and giving it such prominence in the national press.</p>
<p>Re Tom Michael&#8217;s comment about brain injury studies, it&#8217;s always good to look at a scientific issue from multiple angles, and brain injury studies are a useful example here &#8211; but carry their own problems (damage not limited to area under study, brain adapting to damage in unpredictable ways, unknown extra hidden damage, e.g. in white matter tracts, and so on). Neuroimaging, especially fMRI, is an incredibly useful, powerful method potentially, but can only live up to this potential if various things improve, including better training, more valid application of techniques, more replication, and generally more rigour at all stages.</p>
<p>Just to flag up that I wrote a long blogpost about these problems, along with potential solutions (with an extensive comment discussion, including from Russ Poldrack and Tal Yarkoni) here:<br />
<a href="http://www.danielbor.com/dilemma-weak-neuroimaging/" rel="nofollow">http://www.danielbor.com/dilemma-weak-neuroimaging/</a></p>
<p>And there was a great special issue of this month&#8217;s The Psychologist magazine, with many articles generally discussing the problem of replication in psychology, with one article (by me) specifically describing problems and potential solutions in neuroimaging.  You can access this issue here:<br />
<a href="http://issuu.com/thepsychologist/docs/0512?mode=embed&#038;layout=http%3A%2F%2Fskin.issuu.com%2Fv%2Fdark%2Flayout.xml&#038;showFlipBtn=true&#038;proShowSidebar=true" rel="nofollow">http://issuu.com/thepsychologist/docs/0512?mode=embed&#038;layout=http%3A%2F%2Fskin.issuu.com%2Fv%2Fdark%2Flayout.xml&#038;showFlipBtn=true&#038;proShowSidebar=true</a></p>
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		<title>By: Mark Stokes</title>
		<link>http://mindhacks.com/2012/05/28/a-bridge-over-troubled-waters-for-fmri/#comment-27761</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Mark Stokes]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 May 2012 10:26:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mindhacks.com/?p=22743#comment-27761</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I agree with Tom that flawed logic is perhaps the bigger problem. It is not bad stats that give us:

the coloured blobs represent a &quot;pleasure centre&quot;, an &quot;art centre&quot; or perhaps a &quot;love centre&quot;

But rather a basic misrepresentations of causality, presumably because of the pressure to over-simplify for catchy sound bites [for a nice discussion of such nefarious pressures on science, see: http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/blog/2011/feb/16/thinking-caps-pseudoscience-neuroscience]. 

Yes, stats are very important, but we should not forget about logic along the way. 

For some more discussion related to Vaughan&#039;s article: http://the-brain-box.blogspot.co.uk/2012/05/truth-before-beauty-making-sense-of.html]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree with Tom that flawed logic is perhaps the bigger problem. It is not bad stats that give us:</p>
<p>the coloured blobs represent a &#8220;pleasure centre&#8221;, an &#8220;art centre&#8221; or perhaps a &#8220;love centre&#8221;</p>
<p>But rather a basic misrepresentations of causality, presumably because of the pressure to over-simplify for catchy sound bites [for a nice discussion of such nefarious pressures on science, see: <a href="http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/blog/2011/feb/16/thinking-caps-pseudoscience-neuroscience%5D" rel="nofollow">http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/blog/2011/feb/16/thinking-caps-pseudoscience-neuroscience%5D</a>. </p>
<p>Yes, stats are very important, but we should not forget about logic along the way. </p>
<p>For some more discussion related to Vaughan&#8217;s article: <a href="http://the-brain-box.blogspot.co.uk/2012/05/truth-before-beauty-making-sense-of.html" rel="nofollow">http://the-brain-box.blogspot.co.uk/2012/05/truth-before-beauty-making-sense-of.html</a></p>
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		<title>By: Tom Michael</title>
		<link>http://mindhacks.com/2012/05/28/a-bridge-over-troubled-waters-for-fmri/#comment-27749</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Tom Michael]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 May 2012 09:04:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mindhacks.com/?p=22743#comment-27749</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Here&#039;s OK Cupid&#039;s blog, for some funny psychological correlations:
http://blog.okcupid.com/]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Here&#8217;s OK Cupid&#8217;s blog, for some funny psychological correlations:<br />
<a href="http://blog.okcupid.com/" rel="nofollow">http://blog.okcupid.com/</a></p>
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		<title>By: Tom Michael</title>
		<link>http://mindhacks.com/2012/05/28/a-bridge-over-troubled-waters-for-fmri/#comment-27748</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Tom Michael]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 May 2012 09:03:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mindhacks.com/?p=22743#comment-27748</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[This is a good follow up to the Observer article Vaughan.  I think the recent criticisms of fMRI should actually be taken as a sign that the methods are becoming more mature, as some constructive self-criticism is necessary to make the methods more rigorous.

The power problem (i.e. that there are not enough participants to be sure that we are not getting false positive, or false negative results) is not unique to fMRI.  As we psychologists are aware, the vast majority of psychological studies have very small sample sizes.  The general public may not be aware of this however.  In this respect, some of the best psychology studies I&#039;ve seen have been carried out by the dating website OK Cupid - with sample sizes of 100,000+

The other problem with fMRI as I see it is the association-cause problem.  Yes, BOLD signals may be a good proxy for cognition, but just because there is activation in brain area X when we engage in behaviour Y doesn&#039;t mean that brain area X causes cognition Z.  For this reason, I tend to trust interpretations of double-dissociation studies with brain injured people much more than imaging methods.

However, the power problem is sometimes even worse in brain injury studies (I am using qualitative data and case studies for part of my PhD for example).  Also, one thing that fMRI has going for it is that it is truly experimental, particularly if methods like TMS are used in conjunction with fMRI.  In comparison, double-dissociation brain injury studies are by their nature pseudo-experimental, as we have to find brain injured participants who have been unfortunate enough to have suffered a brain injury of the type we are interested in studying.  This is another reason why our sample sizes are often quite small.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This is a good follow up to the Observer article Vaughan.  I think the recent criticisms of fMRI should actually be taken as a sign that the methods are becoming more mature, as some constructive self-criticism is necessary to make the methods more rigorous.</p>
<p>The power problem (i.e. that there are not enough participants to be sure that we are not getting false positive, or false negative results) is not unique to fMRI.  As we psychologists are aware, the vast majority of psychological studies have very small sample sizes.  The general public may not be aware of this however.  In this respect, some of the best psychology studies I&#8217;ve seen have been carried out by the dating website OK Cupid &#8211; with sample sizes of 100,000+</p>
<p>The other problem with fMRI as I see it is the association-cause problem.  Yes, BOLD signals may be a good proxy for cognition, but just because there is activation in brain area X when we engage in behaviour Y doesn&#8217;t mean that brain area X causes cognition Z.  For this reason, I tend to trust interpretations of double-dissociation studies with brain injured people much more than imaging methods.</p>
<p>However, the power problem is sometimes even worse in brain injury studies (I am using qualitative data and case studies for part of my PhD for example).  Also, one thing that fMRI has going for it is that it is truly experimental, particularly if methods like TMS are used in conjunction with fMRI.  In comparison, double-dissociation brain injury studies are by their nature pseudo-experimental, as we have to find brain injured participants who have been unfortunate enough to have suffered a brain injury of the type we are interested in studying.  This is another reason why our sample sizes are often quite small.</p>
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